Racing's not racing currently ;O(

Hi Guys,

Thanks for another wicked night last night.

Some thoughts after last night I hope you don't mind me sharing and in no way am I trying to whinge, just share observations which I hope help progress HORC.

In my qualifying lobby the quickest lap times where not displayed in the top left and the lobby was not set to 'invite only' so some random joined and put me off. This happened in my race lobby to with a buzzing microphone from someone who joined mid race.

Can I request that all lobbies are by 'invite only' and any spectators are there from the start for the duration so as to avoid any lagging from joining or leaving lobbies?

Also could you organise that lobby settings for both qualifying and race distances be saved early on in the 'race evening' by appointed lobby captains to avoid forgetting settings etc?

I have come to realise that qualifying is to important for the final 'race' results. After qualifying you can only gain or lose places in your respective lobbies. With 50 odd racers that feels a bit wrong and defeats the object of racing in a league. I can't progress even if I have a better race than anyone in a lobby higher than myself. So if I am a poor qualifier but wicked racer (hypothetically) then there's going to be no point in continuing to race as I can't climb the leader boards. Recording final race distance 'Total Times' would enable progression as in the real world of racing. If a poor qualifier races well and cleanly he could even win outright. This can't happen in HORC currently, which isn't racing unfortunately.

Qualification should still mean something so it should still form the grid order and also take into account how long it takes from qualifying position of say 34th to actually reach the start/finish line the first time. This could be done with a standard staggered time according to qualifying position to avoid lengthy reply timing of each start or actually from peoples real starts.

Again, guys, you are doing a wicked job. Keep it up. AND THANKS ;O)

i agree with the invite only mate, it happened in our lobby last nite on final 2 laps. qualification seems fine though to be honest. I wouldnt like being put in a lobby with dizzy, ryan and stig for example. there at least 2 seconds quicker most of the time.

good job last nite everyone hopefully i can be more competitive around sebring!!

i agree, qualifying works and you race in a lobby with mainly the same paced guys. Its just for those that lap quicker and more consistently over longer distances have no way of improving beyond the lobby they qualified for, so in effect, its only a 8 person race for each competitor once qualifying is over ;O(

Magictap wrote:Hi Guys,

Thanks for another wicked night last night.

Some thoughts after last night I hope you don't mind me sharing and in no way am I trying to whinge, just share observations which I hope help progress HORC.

In my qualifying lobby the quickest lap times where not displayed in the top left and the lobby was not set to 'invite only' so some random joined and put me off. This happened in my race lobby to with a buzzing microphone from someone who joined mid race.

Can I request that all lobbies are by 'invite only' and any spectators are there from the start for the duration so as to avoid any lagging from joining or leaving lobbies?

Also could you organise that lobby settings for both qualifying and race distances be saved early on in the 'race evening' by appointed lobby captains to avoid forgetting settings etc?

I have come to realise that qualifying is to important for the final 'race' results. After qualifying you can only gain or lose places in your respective lobbies. With 50 odd racers that feels a bit wrong and defeats the object of racing in a league. I can't progress even if I have a better race than anyone in a lobby higher than myself. So if I am a poor qualifier but wicked racer (hypothetically) then there's going to be no point in continuing to race as I can't climb the leader boards. Recording final race distance 'Total Times' would enable progression as in the real world of racing. If a poor qualifier races well and cleanly he could even win outright. This can't happen in HORC currently, which isn't racing unfortunately.

Qualification should still mean something so it should still form the grid order and also take into account how long it takes from qualifying position of say 34th to actually reach the start/finish line the first time. This could be done with a standard staggered time according to qualifying position to avoid lengthy reply timing of each start or actually from peoples real starts.

Again, guys, you are doing a wicked job. Keep it up. AND THANKS ;O)

Thank you for your feedback,

As your race lobby host last night, i will ensure your feelings are fed back to the HORC officials.

My lobby settings were pre saved except for the 1 lap run to sort the grid order and that took 5 seconds to set once we were given the go ahead from Race Control.

Once we'd completed that I changed the laps from 1 to 25 we were off and racing. I will admit i gave the lobby the opportunity to have a comfort break before we ran but in everyones interest i think that is sensible as we the lobby hosts had been flat out behind the scenes from 1930hrs.

Invite only seems a good idea and i agree the chap that joined to spectate did have a noisy mic and that was off putting so i will ask the HORC officials if we should make it a rule to ensure the lobbies are set to invite only.

With regards to the qualifying system, I understand where you are coming from but think this is the only way to run a series of this size without it getting very complicated.

If we ran it as you suggest then it would make sense for the fast drivers to slow qualify and therefor end up racing against slower drivers, which potentially enables them to get throught the pack and have lots of clear fast laps to recored an overall fast race time.

Please remember we are promoting close clean racing and if you race against people who have qualifyed with similar lap times then in theory the 25 lap races will be close!

To conclude, thanks for the feedback, HORC will always listen and discuss your comments and we look forward to seeing you on the 24th February at SEBRING CLUB.

Cheers for your response guys ;O) Much appreciated

i can see what you mean with qualifying. it seems that the results of qualifying have a bigger impact than the results off the race. i would say that the only way to fix this problem would be to give bonus points to people who finish 1st 2nd and 3rd in their lobbies or any other modifications to the points system. Or there could be some overlaps in the points system. I.E. a winner of one race scores the same amount of points as the person who finishes 6th in the lobby just above.

Point noted Jake - we will discuss your ideas and let you have any feedback

Ultimately the way the lobby system works on forza, it limits us to 8 per lobby. Qualifying is fundemental to this series as it is in real racing. Therefore the format for the racing is limited by this.
I have personally raced in a variety of online racing series, and this is the way the qualification and race format is done across the board.
Yes i understand you could have a stinker in qualy, but be consistent over the race itself. However it is the same situation for all racers that participate. I myself suggested in another series i ran in the same things you guys are saying so i know where your coming from, however it is a logistical nightmare.
For example, B lobby has a saftey car, and the other 6 lobbies dont, lobby B would effectively finish last, penalising the drivers in that lobby, especially if you were one of the cars that wasnt involved.

Additional points will not be added to the top 3 finishing drivers as again it makes the whole point system overly complicated and potentialy opens up disputes.

Its down to you personally to do the best lap time you can do in qualification, weighing up the pros and cons pushing for those extra tenths. I personally ran 6 tenths quicker in the race round Laguna Seca.... when the pressure of putting a lap in isnt so much of a priority to the actual racing itself.

The championship is there to add a bit of a competitive feel to Forza, which is why the HORC was set up. Yes everyone would like to win, but i think if you look at it as a game, and enjoyment is your priority, where you finish shouldn't be the be all and end all of it. Have fun races with like minded people, and more importantly have some action packed laps with racers who will give you a run for your money...... This is what the HORC is all about!!!
So Magic i totally disagree with your comment it isnt racing.... unless of course your driving Miss Daisy?!? lol

All im interested in is having a good race, whether i finish first or last irrespective of the championship standings...

This is a community, and we do take on board all feedback... however sometimes it just isnt possible to comply with every suggestion.... we have been going a month, so over time, we are striving to deliver the best racing you can find on Forza!

Thanks

AJ

I've now parked Miss Daisy and look forward to Sebring. Thank you very much for the full explanation and thinking/reasoning behind our reply. Again, much appreciated. Keep it up guys. Thanks.

This is one of the most discussed problems in racing league history i think

at the end of the day there's nothing we can do about it except for all getting Pc's and buying RFactor.

one day there will be a game where we can run 20+ players in a lobby one day...

There is a way. But just takes organisation and planning. But basically, only people who can have there laptops/Pc's within reach on at the same time as racing can be lobby Captains.

All lobby captains have an HORC Skype account with speakers and a microphone. Free communication ;O)

This way all lobby captains can speak freely with each other in real time during races, so should a safety car be called in any lobby, that lobby captain announces it has been called and counts down to deploying the safety car so all lobby captains can relay deployment of safety cars together.

HORC could be breaking ground by trialing this until a good solution has been found. I for one would be willing to host a lobby in this fashion if anyone wants to give it a go?

Magictap wrote:HORC could be breaking ground by trialing this until a good solution has been found. I for one would be willing to host a lobby in this fashion if anyone wants to give it a go?

It's a nice idea, but it simply wouldn't work, it's beyond the technical capabilities of the console and network - all the races would have to be synchronized to start at the same time, which is not the same as all the lobbies hitting start at the same time. Each lobby will load at a different speed depending on the number of people in the lobby, the speed of each persons connection and the complexity of each person's paint job (this affects the speed at which the lobby loads), whether people have the game installed to the hard drive etc. There's so many variables that it is impossible to guarantee everyones race would start at the same time.

That's not even considering the impact the having PC's connected with Skype running would have on the latency and lag of the lobby - all HORC lobby captains turn off all other devices while racing to minimise this, and it's highly recommended that everyone racing turns of all PC's and other internet-connected or Wi-Fi enabled devices (e.g. smartphones, iPod's etc) to stop any lag.

Maybe 10 years from now we'll all have fast connections to enable this sort of thing, but its a long, long way off at the moment unforunately!

As for the whole method of organising the races, as others have posted, almost every professionally run Forza series runs with a system of splitting the entrants into seperate lobbies based on a qualification system. It's a tried-and-tested method that delivers the best quality *racing* - and by that I mean, drivers of similar skill levels and speed in a race together, and that's what most people actually want, an on-track battle with other cars. Anything else just becomes a 25 lap hotlap session, you might as well turn off collisions and just record the end race time and determine the race result from that - on paper this may sound like it would give a more 'correct' result, but in practice many would find the racing to be incredibly dull and boring - and in reality the end results would be little different, but there would be no on-track racing.

Rather than thinking of each lobby as a fractured part of a larger race, consider the individual race you are in to be an event in itself - the qualifying system is in effect a matchmaking system (far better than you would find in public lobbies though) - you are matched up with 7 other drivers of very similar speed and skill, and enjoy the race with those drivers, rather than focusing on the points that are awarded for the championship - as this is more of a season-long comparison of consistency and participation between you and your fellow drivers. Awarding championship points also provides an incentive for drivers to compete each week and avoid the 'drop off' that inevitably happens with online competitions.

The more drivers there are competing, the more refined the qualifying 'matchmaking' becomes, giving even closer competition in each individual race. The qualifying times for the B lobby race this week for example were incredibly close. As with real racing, qualifying is an important part of the event, and it's not just a test of speed, it's also a test of nerves and mental strength to keep cool under pressure.

Thankyou for your suggestions, we do all want to have the best racing series possible and it's not always an easy thing to do with the limitations of the game, the hardware and the network infrastructure.

Cheers

Mark

perfect explanation... im convinced (:

i personally would not change anything about the way its run at the moment.

i agree with magic that the lobby your placed in is your individual competition so to speak. for me it depends on how serious you take it. i want to do my best but i know im not the best so its not life or death for me.

i think if qualifying is a weakness then thats the individuals loss and no one else.
this championship is fair in that it will find the best all round racer.
if you cant qualify well then we just have to admit our failings as a racer.simple as that for me.

on sebring club i hit a p.b in qualifying, but got dominated in the race. to me it wasnt fun as i didnt have the talent to race to my qualifying time consistently.

i would rather have an average qualifying time and then have a great battle in the race than what happened on sebring.

just my thoughts though.

keep up the good work

just one change i would like, sorry but dont expect it to happen.

as someone who enjoyes tuning i would like to use that to my advantage in the race, and hopefully beat someone faster than me cos they cant tune! lol